| Wednesday, May 15, 2002 |
17:08 - Ars Technica's forumers dish about Xserve
http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=174096756&m=3050968
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It's really interesting to watch the dynamic as this discussion progresses. The first reactions are that Apple's asking price is way too high, and that it's "just another rack-mount server in a sea of equivalent competitors", and that the price is way too high:
Yes, it is [an outrageous price].
I can go to Dell and pay less than half of Apples asking price and come out with SCSI and RAID to boot.
Anyway you slice it, nearly $8K for what is purported to be a server without SCSI is a rip. No doubt, Mac users will celebrate this as the "next big thing".
If you're spending that much on a server, it had best have SCSI. Period.
Then, people start noticing that ATA drives really do just about as well as SCSI drives-- particularly if they're well-built. The MTBF on ATA drives isn't as high as on SCSI disks, they say-- well, that may be, but it all depends on build quality, doesn't it? These drives in the Xserve are pretty damn tip-top. Oh, and that $8000 price includes four of them, at 120GB each.
So then people start noticing that the Xserve has two gigabit NICs... that it has AGP4X... that OS X has built-in software RAID... that the Xserve would make an outstanding rendering workstation in a field where no Wintel or Linux machine could compete... that the CPUs and the RAM in the Xserve are much faster... and that the client software licenses for server administration are free and unlimited.
Then:
Half as much?! You better support that claim with facts!
and
keep in mind that version is fully loaded
Dual 1 GHz PowerPC G4, 2MB L3 cache per processor
2.0GB DDR SDRAM @ 266MHz
4x120GB Apple Drive Modules
CD-ROM drive
ATI Graphics Card Dual Gigabit Ethernet Two USB ports Three FireWire ports
Premium Support Plan
not to mention rack management software and unlimited licensing of OS X server -
$7,799.00
how much would a similarly priced dell be?
...And suddenly people start noticing that, as we like to say in the blog world, we can fact-check your ass. And so here are the figures for 1U Dell boxes tricked out to the same degree as the Xserve, as determined independently by at least two posters:
the dell
Dual Processor Intel Pentium III,1.4GHz w/512K Cache
2GB SDRAM,133MHz,2X1GB DIMMs
Windows 2000 Advanced Server with 25 Client Licenses
24X IDE Internal CD ROM Drive
PCI Riser,2x64bit/66MHz slots
3x73GB 10K RPM Ultra 160 SCSI Hard Drives
On-Board RAID5,3 drives connected to on-board RAID
Intel Pro 1000XT Gigabit NIC
$9,980.00
(PowerEdge 1650)e
And that's before you factor in any Microsoft client licenses, which (for an unlimited version) will run an extra $3295.
Then there's your typical "This can't be right-- all Mac users are zealots and all Apple products suck!" ranting from arrogant people who can't spell:
Qucik question. How many of you mac zelots have anything to do with IT? I can just imagine it. You'r showing off your IT department to a potential client and you proudly calim that you run a completly Appel shop. I would love to see the reaction you get from the potential client.
Also for most duties a *nix variant will kick a MS box hard. These days you only run MS if you ABSOLUTLY have to.
Alos I want to know if the servers OS can handel running for month's on end with out a problem. I know it's based of of BSD but how stabel is it when it's saddeled with the OSx GUI?
Is this Appels top of the line fully tricked out server? If so what happens when you need to upgraed to say, 4 or 8 procs? More Ram?
If this person had bothered to educate himself with even the slightest bit of OS X experience, he'd know the answers to these already: namely, that lots of Mac people run IT departments; that Apple isn't a pariah anymore; that people are proud to show off their Macs; that OS X is extremely stable in a server environment, GUI or no; that the G4 can be multicored to do true 4-way and 8-way SMP, for future higher-end models-- and so on.
I especially like this bit, right after the same person prices a competitor's offering:
Hmm, twice the power and BETTER harddrives. And only a grand more. Sorry IDE MTBF is no ware near what SCIS is. Also are the Appel HD's hot swappable? Plus you also get 2 onboard 10/100 nics. Granted the xeons have less cache but they are agine twice as fast.
Didn't even bother to read the specs, did he? These are the people making technical decisions in our NOCs, so it would seem. Hey, brain donor: yes, the Appel harrd drvies are hot swapabel. It says so rite on the paeg. Oh, and don't try to impress me with your two on-board 10/100 NICs. The Xserve comes with two gigabit NICs. And those Xeons are 2GHz Intels, and if I have to explain again how counting megahertz is not a linear measurement of overall system speed, then it's hardly worth bothering.
Fortunately, the guy gets roundly beaten up in followup posts by people who have by this point come to realize that the Xserve is a pretty damn sweet package. The Dells don't even come with cable-management arms. I know this from experience. And the Xserve does-- plus connectors and thumbscrews for four or five different kinds of racks and cabinets, a spare-parts kit, three PCI slots, three FireWire, two USB, that cool Allen key that locks out the ports and the CD-ROM, and let's not forget the unlimited client licenses. Want me to say that again? Unlimited client licenseeeeeees...
Then the guy who originally tried to say that a comparable Dell would cost $4000 jumps back in:
$4,324.00 (Nealy half the price)
PowerEdge 1650, Dual PII 1.13GHz w/512K Cache
2GB SDRAM, 133MHz,4x512MB DIMMs
2x 73GB 10K RPM Ultra160 SCSI Hard Drive
PERC3-DI, 128MB Battery Backed Cache, 1 Int, 1 Ext Channels- Embedded RAID
Oh good. Two small drives (and only one extra bay), slower RAM, Pentium II CPUs, and a case design that eats finger flesh. Plus you gotta buy those client licenses.
Yep. You can lick my sack.
No thanks. It probably tastes like Dell.
Why is it that the PC-bigot "takedowns" of Apple products are by such clearly repugnant people with such obviously false and refutable statements? Could it possibly be that... oh, I don't know, that maybe Apple is doing something right after all?
No, I suppose I must just be a "Mac zealot" who has never seen the inside of a server room.
But fortunately the majority of the discussion-- and not just here, but at Slashdot, ZDNet, and everywhere else that carries tech news, the opinion has followed this same trend: caution, ambivalence, or dismissal at first; followed by surprised interest; followed by paranoid delusional fascist ranting; countered by a groundswell of positive support and enthusiasm.
It'll be tough to shake off these barnacles of nay-sayers as we lift off, but I think we're on our way.
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